Category: Let's talk
So, I realize that this is going to be kind of a tough topic to bring up, but I thought I'd post about this to hear people's opinions about it. I realize that doctors, counselors, teachers, etc. need their education from a college in order to work well in their professions. However, I've seen people go through school, get their degrees, and graduate unable to find a job. This is partly because of the economic downturn here in the US, and I understand that, but I think that people shouldn't go to school unless they really have to. I think that people who go to school thinking that they will be in seventh heaven once they graduate are sadly mistaken. Any thoughts?
It's pretty obvious, especially in this day and age that college isn't the answer to all of your problems. Right now, even people with masters or doctor degrees are having a hard time finding a job.
There have been many people who have turned out to be successful in life without going to college. I believe, but don't quote me on it for absolute certainty, that Bill Gates is one of those people. It's a hard thing to really put into words though, going to college or not going, because college works for some people, while others learn better via the actual work environment. There are just some people that just quite simply aren't cut out for school, but who become hugely successful in their professions.
I think Bill Gates did it, but Steve Jobs also did it. He went to college for a while and ended up dropping out, because from what he said, he didn't see any value in it. In fact, when Steve Jobs met with President Obama, he felt very strongly that people who want to work for companies like Apple shouldn't necessarily have to go through schooling just to work there.
I agree. Unfortunately nowadays it is hit or miss. I'm going to college for my Master's in O&M, when I could go another route and do an Internship.
I strongly believe obtaining an education is important. but that's just me.
no, college certainly isn't for everyone, nor is it the end all, be all to one's life.
I, for one, went for awhile cause I constantly heard how going was the only way to make something of myself. during that time, I was absolutely miserable. it didn't seem right that there weren't other ways to be successful. and, thankfully, I've discovered I was right, in the end.
this particular issue is one I feel strongly about, and am grateful to know others think similarly.
I think I remember discussing this issue with you a while back, Chelsea. It's good that I have people who agree with me on this. I don't think that people should be forced into going to college if they don't want to do it, and I feel that a lot of people are forcing their kids to do it. I went to college for a while myself, and I just don't feel that it's right for me to go back, so I'm simply looking for a job.
Of course there are benefits to going to college, but like anything else there are down sides to it. I think it depends on who you are and what exactly you want to get out of college.
Like I mentioned before, college isn't a guarantee that you will live a happy, or that you will not end up with "the perfect job." You may not be paid a hell of a lot more money in the career you are persue, because the economy is always changing and so is demand for jobs. Moreover, it looks good on your resume, and there is a slightly greater chance of you getting a job, but again it is not absolute.
No college isn't for everyone or necessary. I happen to think though if you can deal with it as a blind person it can be a great time in your life to meet people and do things. The benefits as far as your technology items is wonderful if again you know how to work things so you receive them. After you get started it is easy to keep them upgraded and many of them are 100% effective in your day to day life with or without a job or college.
jobs can look just as good (or better) on a resume, than some would argue college does. especially nowadays, when employers mostly look at a person's experience, rather than what degree they may or may not have.
Totally agree, Chelsea. Couldn't have said it any better.
Employers will usually choose experience over a degree on a resume, if a person only has one or the other. Now, if you can somehow manage to get both, great, but like Distance runner said, it really depends what you're hoping to get out of college. if you simply want a higher education, go for it. But if you're like me who wants to be working as soon as possible, the only reason to go to college that I can see, personally, is if you choose a career field that requires certification. and even then, I wouldn't go any longer than what it will take to obtain that certification.
Here's what you need to know before going to college:
First, getting your two-year from community college never hurt anyone, it's a lot cheaper, and community colleges have a lot of so-called alternative, or non-university type courses which help in your exploration.
However, just having a college education for an education's sake is not the currency it used to be. Yes, college can be very ehlpful, but in order to make it work, think of it as a financial investment. Remember, your student loans and their interest will be astronomical. You need to only go to college for a degree that will directly make you an income. This is a decision I should have done even in the early 90s. No froot loop degrees, no persons studies degrees, etc. Not unless you personally are prepared financially to pay for that. All this claptrap about academia for academia's sake can only be coming from the public-sponsored types. Even when looking at your continuing education options, consider certifications, even the non-certifiable iTunesU (iTunes University) options.
But your college education is an investment, and either you have to sponsor you, or someone else has to sponsor you, so you need to be prepared to go to school for something that will earn you a good living. Think of education like stocks: you would not put your retirement into an investment that would tank on you, would you? Well, apparently people who major in women's studies, even general studies like I did, have done just that. I have made it to midlife financially, but, barely.
Entrepreneurship, if you can do it, is the best way. Take courses in business and marketing - not that so-called free Internet marketing stuff, but real business courses where you learn about how to manage things and people. These are skills I at least had the foresight to acquire after the fact, even if I was too stupid to take those courses in college.You can get good business education at your community college.
Also, any sort of community involvement where you can learn to cultivate your leadership shkills (everyone has leadership potential in one area or another), do that stuff sooner rather than later. And do it with a recognized group, not something small or unrecognizable like disabled anything.
I earned an outstanding service award when I was in college, which people liked, until they learned what it was for: for getting the disabled computer lab connected with other community services and a few other things technican and nontechnical which I can't be bothered to remember anymore, namely because the world could care less about that: Join up with Civil Air Patrol (you can do that blind), the Coast Guard Auxiliary, Red Cross, some other system where you get involved and learn these leadership and organizational skills academia almost never teaches, but must depend upon to get fed.
Run one or more businesses: if you work for yourself you automatically must learn bookkeeping, management, budgets, taxes, etc. again great for the resume.
If you really have an interest in some of these more nebulous areas like the various <insert term here> studies, do that on your own time for free using iTunesU on your iOS device or via iTunes, or some other free online course.
Everyone should learn business skills. I've been a near shipwreck and honestly, business skills saved my ass. Nothing else did: not school, not hope, not fantasy, not even image. It's all in how well you understand how to manage what you have, and grow it. Nothing, not a single thing, else matters. I attribute a major reason for why I've ended up as I have to the fact that in my youth I went with the status quo college wise. The guys who just took the business courses, learned a business, and started their own, are as successful, and as rich, as they deserve to be. Doing less means constant struggle, never enough, always wondering if you have the money to take care of things on the home front, etc.
As I said, I fortunately saw a sliver of wisdom and from early on started learning business skills on the job, taking lead roles when they presented themselves even though I am not a so-called natural born leader, stuff like that. But it's harder when you don't start out right.
Of course education is important: but what education, and where you get it, is equally important. Remember, despite what they tell you in the schools, the only thing an employer asks when they look over your fancy qualifications and accomplishments is: "so. How does this help me? How does this brin us a bottom line?" It's your job to maximize that, and enhance that once you get going.
The days of college for college's sake are long gone, and were gone even when I went, except to those of us (myself included) not smart enough to realize it.
It's good that I am getting my undergrad in business management then.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to have any paid working experience before. I tried applying at various places but none of them accepted me. I have some volunteer work I can add to my experience though.
As usual, well said Leo!:) Fortunately I majored in business/marketing... and now have a great internship with the county's office. I'm hoping they'll decide to hire me, but if not it still looks good on my resume and could lead to something else.
and post 14, volunteer work is just as good on a resume.
Just make sure you volunteer at generally-recognized places like the ones I mentioned and others in your area. I didn't even try for the disabled route, I wasn't the activist many were. It was a practical thing why I did what I did in college, a way to collaborate what I knew from some college courses I took, plus what I could learn from some others. But to the world at large anything that smells of disabled is a strike against you. Maybe this is changing, I dunno. But I've the lumps and bumps to prove that. An outstanding Service Award doing anything else would have counted for something. As it turned out it ended up turning the tide in most interviews when I was aksed what this award was for: people think it's a make-believe award if it comes form doing anything for the disabled community.
And at your age, what you need is to look at every single opportunity as an investment for you. For yourself. Because in the end, only you are going to get you out of whatever you got yourself into.
Just my advice.
Only issue is if you have experience and you don't have college in this job market the person with both will beat you.
If you are just waiting to find work, why not do something while you are waiting? For a disabled person college is totally helpful, not for job gettiing, but money wise. You have both when you are finished, because sometimes you can get work in a college setting faster than out.
sometimes, that's true; not very often nowadays, though.
as has been said, it depends on your goals, what you're willing to put into finding/attaining employment, how willing you are to persist, etc.
And the debt is astronomical. I have friends who are spending ten years paying off a debt for a degree that she really isn't using much. Sure, the degree helped her get in the door of her job, but she could have gotten it anywhere else... for much cheaper... in a field she was going to continue in.
It's not what you know, or who you know, it's who knows you.
A degree is worth little unless you spent or are spending time building up a network of professionals who know and can vouch for your skills. That means doing grunt-work, degree or no degree, for a long time. I don't think college can teach you that, but it can definitely take your money to give you a piece of paper.
College is an opportune place to make those social connections that might boost you into employment, because you can do all sorts of volunteer and government-body activities that aren't available to you as a non-student. Utilize them wisely.
I do think that college is overly boasted about. and too many places want to look for that diploma more then needs to be out there.
There is a mentality I have seen among blind people that I think is misguided. I am not saying the posters have this mentality, but I do believe it is too often expressed. The mentality is that they do not want to improve themselves and wish only to live on SSI and the occasional income from small jobs. Again, I don't think it applies much to this topic, because people seem to have substantive reasons they dislike college.
I don't care if you don't like it, having a postsecondary education is going to be very useful in a job market where very few jobs are available. The jobs typically taken by those who dislike university-level education are typically not available to the blind, such as working the counter, fast food restaurant, etc. Even though many could probably do them, employers will hire the sighted for the job. Thus, we blind people need to impress our future employers, one reason I believe university education to be invaluable.
My view is that those who do not wish to continue past high school should not be surprised when they do not succeed in the business world. Yes, some people have done well without a college diploma (Bill Gates went through several years at Harvard, thus he shouldn't be mentioned here. However, given our disabilities, I find it hard to believe that anyone is going to do this.
I agree, especially for blind people, college is not going to get you very far these days unless you have something really specific in mind. I wish voc rehab would stop pushing university and college on people.
synthesizer, I find your view to be misguided. people who don't choose the college route, can be just as successful as those who choose it.
I agree, college is not right for everyone.
are you kidding union labor girl? voc rehab first told me to go get a job instead of go to school, I told them I can not do that
I am not disputing that those who do not choose a postsecondary route have options. I am simply observing that many are much more likely to get a job and make more money with a college education behind them. If you don't like it, but you've got a job, more power to you. I still believe, however, that my blindness poses enough problems that I'd better look really good to future employers. Also, if you are looking for technical work, you'll need to study at a university level.
what I'm saying, though, is that it's all in the tools one has, or is resourceful enough to get, ETC. sure there are certain jobs that aren't possible to obtain without college under one's belt, but nowadays, it isn't as big a deal as it used to be.
I think it really depends on one's ultimate goal.
I again must disagree with you. College is becoming more important. Previously, being well educated was an honor and few actually received one. Now that it's more possible, it is becoming more expected.
it depends on who you ask, but I guarantee that most people will tell you otherwise, nowadays. especially people who, like you, used to feel it was the only way a person could be successful.
A college degree looks pretty on a resume but it doesn't guarantee you a job, especially today. If you disagree, why is it that there are lots of people coming out of college and struggling to find a job? Also, in the computer and technology field, as time passes, things are always changing. You can have a degree, but unless you keep up with the changes and updates no employer will want you.
Exactly, why waste all that money on a degree when it might not even get you anywhere?
It comes down to a gamble. You could get lucky, or nothing will happen. I personally chose to go to college for the experience. I'm determined to get the job I want, and I know for sure there are plenty of places who would need me. Another thing to pay attention to in any economy is the jobs that either need people, or the jobs that seem to do well during a period of time.
A college degree doesn't guarantee you a job, but nothing does, short of bribing your future employer with the copious amounts of funds neither of us have. However, a college education does increase the chances for a job. If you can succeed in your life without going to college, I support you. I believe that there are many ways to do it. However, a college education improves the chances of getting a job, and your chances of having a high-paying one are much greater. With the recent influx of low-paying jobs to other countries, I fully expect the need for postsecondary education to rise, as factory and similar labor becomes less plentiful.
Leaving behind the fundamentalist whacko drivel about the blind being lazy, let's be real: First, statistics from the Department of Labor would disagree with that claim, sorry to drop a bomb on that fantasy or pop that there porn bubble but there you have it.
Now, blind, sighted, one-legged frog, or what have you: a college degree matters if you get the right college degree for the right job you want to have. College costs a lot more now even than when I was in college 20 years ago, and it's sick how the student loans have interest rates like credit cards.
Again, being realistic: Most people don't know what they want to do with their life at age 18, even if they really think they do. My suggestion is you go to community college to get your prereqs done. While you're there, take some of the courses you may not find at university, but are available there at the community college. Get involved even on a community college campus. Most community colleges now have professors from the universities teaching there.
A college education only means something if it is the area you want to work in, meaning get the degree to match the career. Sure, in the 70s and 80s employers just took students from college who showed they'd performed well in school and participated in extracurricular activities, but that isn't enough now. You have to be getting the right degree for the career you want. When I was in college, they said students change their majors up to five times during their college career. I changed mine twice, and frankly, ended up with the wrong one based on the career I ultimately ended up in.
All I can say, is definitely get you some business courses, and the community college will be able to help you with that. Education is costing more, but not keeping pace with employment.
Oh, and that religion, women's studies, or underwater basketweaving degree? Forget it, unless you're independently wealthy enough to sponsor yourself.
I don't see anyone on here being "lazy," looks like it's a bit of caveat emptor and financial realism to me. But a trade school isn't a short circuit to a career either, and don't go to those that they claim to have on the daytime talk shows. If it has a 1800 number, it's not a university, sorry. Yeah, it's a problem, a real problem, that we as a society have created.
thank you, leo, for talking the sense that I couldn't articulate well enough myself. I was hoping you'd speak up, since you're someone in an older age bracket than I am who knows how it is.
I'm sorry to keep you waiting, but here they are, statistics.
LeoGuardian said
First, statistics from the Department of Labor would disagree with that claim,
So now, statistics. The first column shows the unemployment rate, in percentages. The second column shows the level of education attained. The third column shows median weekly earnings.
2.5% Doctoral degree $1,551
2.4 Professional degree 1,665
3.6 Master's degree 1,263
4.9 Bachelor's degree 1,053
6.8 Associate degree 768
8.7 Some college, no degree 719
9.4 High-school diploma 638
14.1 Less than a high school diploma 451
7.6 All Workers 797
source: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
conclusion:
It appears that getting a doctoral degree will not help many people. Otherwise, there are substantial increases in pay and in employment as education rates increase.
Hello:
While me personally I am not exactly a person who enjoys or wants to go back to the college route I will say this. It seems to me at least now-a-days that a bachelors degree is now becoming the new highschool diploma. Sure, first and foremost employers look for people with the work experience necessary to do the job first and foremost, but if the applicants that are being looked at don't have the experience necessary, employers look at the degree. Before, when you looked at the requirements of a job, other than the skills necessary to do the job you only needed the highschool diploma, however, more and more people are requiring at least an associates degree and some even a bachelors. Therefore, in conclusion, while I don't think college is for everyone, it's becoming increasingly clear that graduating from highschool isn't enough, unless you know someone or hit a lucky break.
I hate that even though having a college degree is awesome, when you have a disability no matter what pieces of paper you have employers look at your disability instead of what you have accomplished.
I agree with jessica that a college degree of some sort is becoming a standard requirement for jobs. it's been that way for a while. But leo is right also in saying that specific degrees are more saught-after rather than what I call the bachelor of crap degrees that some peopel decide to complete.
Though the college degree is a plus in many instances, if you're not a resourceful person in the least, you don't know how to market yourself, promote a good resume, get involved, etc. You still won't impress your prospective boos enough to give you a job. So in that instance, Chelsea is correct as well.
Now, I'll ad my share of common sense. Is college necessary for everyoe, no, because not everyone is cut out for all the burocratic bullshit that the academic system is all about. But let me tell you something: college isn't just about lectures, classes and papers. it's a life experience that not many people get to partake in if they don't end up in college. This is especially true for many blind people whose families best intentions translate into a sheltered lifestyle. I'm not saying that everyone's life is like this. Many parents are well-informed, supportive and allow their disabled kids to live normal, fulfilling lives. But then there are those who, if let out into the real world after high school, will flounder and drown and sink to teh bottom of the pool, so to speak. College, for most, is like a precursor to the real world. It's a transitionary stage of life, and sometimes you learn more outside of your classes but within your college environment than you do from your professors. Just my thoughts.
Those of you who've known me for a while know that I've been in college forever. A lot of it was due to depression, chronic sleep-deprivation due to a roommate, and my own lack of clarity about what I wanted for my future.
Having said all that, I realize all the statistics tell you to go to college and get a B.A. in something. for most people I think that's not a bad idea if you have a clear-cut path planned out for yourself. However, if you don't, my best advice is to go to a community college and take classes toward an associates degree. Like Leo suggested, take business courses if you can.
I think this has been discussed elsewhere, but f you're gonna study something like psychology or sociology, please, please, and for the love of cheesecake please, think about it long and hard before you make that decision. In order to do anything remotely well-paying, you will need a Masters degree at least. In order to be competitive, you'll need to go for your doctorate.
In fact, my university requires all psychology students to minor in another area. as far as I know, this is due to the fact that grad shool is becoming more and more competitive.
Knowing what I know now, I would've definitely tried to get a full-time job before I did anything else. At least then I would've had some work experience under my belt. But if you're from an Asian family, they look upon you being blind as being a huge obstacle to employment so don't make it a deal to tell you these things when you're young and naive.
In short, I would say while college isn't for everyone, community college, a trade school, or just one's determination to master a subject and make a living from it are absolutely necessary in our current economic circumstance. Oh, and be sure to hone your reading and writing skills to a fine edge; you'll need them now more than ever.
No you won't. not if you can pay for a writer to take care of your written work for you. After all, if this werent' the case, people like me wouldnt' be able to make a living. lol
Most grads I know who have gotten the degree are having no luck at all finding jobs.
Unless you're the brightest of the brightest, that is.
they're broke, with the collectors calling.
Many I know of "working age" Say that realistically they won't be done paying off college debt until age 40 or 45.
Where does that leave you, if you're also attempting to save for retirement etc.
Fact of the matter iss, a degree seems to mean little to nothing, or next to nothing.
In this economy, you're competing with so many people, that the degree while of some value isn't really anything to write home about.
On top of that, the educational institutions know they're able to price fix, and they do... Boy, they do.
Exactly! Very well said Stormwing.
Um, those statistics would disagree with you. It makes quite a difference what level you go to. Disability will undoubtedly have an effect, no surprise there, and this might account for some of those lack of jobs (I'm assuming that some of these grads are similarly disabled). Also, we're not in a great economy right now. Hate to break it to you, but you aren't guaranteed a job at any level. The statistics show that you have the most chance with higher levels of education. You don't have to; about 86% of those without a high school diploma have jobs. Still, college does give you higher chances for employment in general and high-pay employment in particular.
those stats leave a lot out, such as those who have been out of work for more than a year, or do not intend to work. Its easy to spout off numbers, but its a lot harder to put them in a usable workable logical context. As of now, over 50 percent of new grads at any level are not finding jobs with in one year...
Lets take a look at why this matters.
usually, you're given one year grace period by those whom have lent you the money for your higher education so that you may find a job, and get settled.
But, when over half the new grads can not do so, they're faced with rising interest costs.
It starts damaging credit, and before long, you're unable to do the essential things like get approved by your perspective landlord, take out loans, and so on, and so forth.
If you've been keeping up with the news lately, you'd also note there is a huge problem with grads not being able to find work, only to wind up homeless.
the point is that the numbers and statistics are not as shiny as you'd like to believe, and these days, higher education really is much more of a gamble than it once was.
great posts going synthe and yes, not much more to add here.
Thank you. For my final message, those who do not intend to work don't really have much of a reason to go to any level of education, since they don't want to do anything with it. Thus, those people shouldn't be included. Second, yes, there are problems. Some people may be hurt. Some people may find that they actually didn't do so well in college, and should have gone to a lower-level job instead. Nothing's perfect, including postsecondary education. The statistics show, no matter how you want to dispute it, that the more education you get, the more likely you are to have a high-paying job. Even if they are skewed, for them to be wrong would require that seven times as many people who have doctorate degrees decide they don't want to work as those without high school diplomas. Clearly, this is not the case. So, no matter the holes in the data, I've seen no data to back up your point, so I ask you to provide it.
If you don't want college, don't go. It doesn't get easier than that. But be honest. You believe that you will get more out of what you do than you predict coming from college. It has very little to do with college's actual usefulness/uselessness; it's about your choice.
I do agree with most here.. thought I replied to this topic a while ago.. but obviously not lol.. I definitely agree that college isn't for everyone.. heck, I went to 3 years of schooling, 5 different schools, and from not getting services, to programs kicking me out because I was blind... I've been there done that.. even done some junior college stuff, too... and not only that, I switched my major at least 3 times.... so.. do I regret going to college, absolutely not.. I joined a sorority, and did have some memorable experiences outside the classroom... but with all that said, I won't be going back to school.. after all, I was going for radio broadcasting... nothing was/is accessible... and the only internship I recieved was not from University but from my junior college... (which it was an awesome internship btw) but now I'm just looking for work in anything.... so we'll see... I really don't think one should go to college unless they want to be a doctor of some sort.. JMO... cause otherwise, it's not worth it.